Universal Access To All Knowledge
Home Donate | Store | Blog | FAQ | Jobs | Volunteer Positions | Contact | Bios | Forums | Projects | Terms, Privacy, & Copyright
Search: Advanced Search
Anonymous User (login or join us)
Upload

Reply to this post | See parent post | Go Back
View Post [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 12:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I'll check those out when I get a chance. To me there are two main things that can't be denied

1) any motion of a religious nature introduced during the first congresses were voted down

2) when you read the third article of the first ammendment it CLEARLY lists freedom from before freedoom for. In the English language the main point always comes first. Clearly they were establishing the seperation. How this can be a matter of dispute will never cease to amae me

Article the third ...... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Mandojammer Date: Sep 17, 2009 12:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....

I know this has been rolled out time and again, but based on what I got out of the two books - and this is strictly my interpretive opinion, while Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...., it is implied that the citizenry would embrace some form of religion - Christian, Jew, Muslim or Deist - but not the absence of, and that the nation's moral compass would chart from this assembly of people.

Just my opinion there. And please understand, I am not saying that one needs to be a member of an organized religion to be moral.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

how is it implied? Even if they assumed that clearly the intent was for Government to NOT get involved in Religion

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Mandojammer Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Agreed, it's very clear that the Government was not supposed to get involved in religion - which presumes that there is/was a religion to not get involved in.

You don't have to worry about getting involved in something that doesn't exist.

That's what I came away from the two books with - I wasn't present when the Constitution was being written so I am not trying to argue that that's what the Founding Fathers meant when they crafted the First Amendment. Just the conclusion I drew from my reading.

Perhaps WT and Dire can weigh in on this - I think they were around....

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 2:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

ouch!



;)

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 1:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

well yeah, of COURSE it was around there's no denying that. No offense to anyone I hope, but the more read, educated, and worldy a person becomes ( such as the major players in the drafting of our nation )imo the more open minded they are to other thoughts etc. Hence the knowledge that shoving dogma down people's throats should be avoided at all costs.

Good point on Dire and Tell. What say you sirs?

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 2:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

but, they WERE shoving dogma down people's throats. maybe not religious, but a non-religious politicized judeo-christian word speak nontheless. (if you know what i mean)

however, i totally agree that the more well-read a person is, GENERALLY, the more openminded that person MAY become. (certainly SHOULD become). i truly hesitate though to consider anything our founding fathers wrote or said as anything but self-serving. the ultimate endroad of the political mind has changed very minimally since Greek times (and no, not Jimmy the Greek). :)

you know what..?... i think i have totally lost focus on what the hell i was even trying to say - lol!! oh well, i dont feel like revising :)

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 3:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I don't think they were shoving it down anyone's throats. They already had a representational congress BEFORE independence. Also, interestingly, apparently both Franklin and Jefferson were notorious for NEVER speaking their minds in public in any sort of confrontational way in contrast to the New Englanders who didn't hold their opions back much if any. Of course it was self motivated, no species alive on the planet is ever going to exist without self motivation but I do certainly think it was done with more higher intent that JUST self interest. Oterwise what would be the point to not just get over on anybody they could?

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: snori Date: Sep 18, 2009 4:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

JOTS and others.

Here's a link to a very very long piece that you may find interesting if you have the time.

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 8:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

thanks snori. Pretty much my point although some were certainly. Adams for instance had a fairly strong Christian faith, his Dad was a Deacon and he was thought to have followed in his footsteps as a kid but knew it wasnt for him. I don't know exactly what context these quotes are but I suspect that being the incredibly well read man that he was that he saw the institutions of Christianity for what they were.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: snori Date: Sep 18, 2009 11:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Was that drama series on Adams realistic ? I only saw a few episodes but he came across as thoughtful and compassionate, while understanding the huge responsibility of Public Office. Could do with a few more of those today. Perhaps I ought to read more about him.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 11:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I read the book and the miniseries was accurate to the book. Apparently Adams kept a ton of his VAST correspondence and writings, most of it being with his main confidant his wife. The author based much of the book on the public record and Adams records so I believe it to be pretty accurate.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: bluedevil Date: Sep 18, 2009 12:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

is that the david mccullough (sp?) book? If so, great stuff.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 12:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

yeah, did you read it as well?

I need to read more about the revolution. Most people I know seem to be more civil war buffs but I've always loved and respected the hell out of the revolution. What guts and determination huh? And a lot of it coming from people who weren't THAT bad off financially. It wasn't like just the peasants uprising out of starvation

This post was modified by johnnyonthespot on 2009-09-18 19:35:59

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: bluedevil Date: Sep 18, 2009 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

I did. Great book. He's very good. As a past teacher of US History, I eat that stuff up.

Yea, re that era - gotta love some of the characters that shapped things down until today. I know the "greatest generation" stuff for WWII sells in the marketplace, but those guys (including many members of my family, bless 'em) wouldn't have been off fighting to protect something if it hadn't first been put in place by those folks. Growing up in Viriginia, kind of hard to escape the revolutionary and civil war eras.

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2009-09-18 19:57:50

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2009-09-18 19:59:41

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 18, 2009 1:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

veb and I have been on about this before, but an under appreciated historical period with profound consequences for all that has happened since is WWI thru to 39...amazing the ongoing political and societal ramifications of that period and the folks that were involved, including, of course, our oft quoted previous PM, Winnie, rightly selected as the most significant fellow of the first 50 yrs of the 20th century. Lots of excellent books cover the period.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 18, 2009 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

" Growing up in Viriginia, kind of hard to escape the revolutionary and civil war eras. "

that's for sure. heck you guys pretty much ran the show. With the exception of Adams, Virgians pretty much had the monoply on the Presidency

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

"in contrast to the New Englanders who didn't hold their opions back much if any"


hey! is that a personal jab????

:)

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 9:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

no but hey, you just proved my point. Thanks! : )

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 10:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

lol


you know us northerners cannot help ourselves :)

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 2:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

it was implied simply due to the fact that their language, their studies, their thoughts were created within a language of judeo-christian construct. they did not know any other way. (imho)

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Sep 17, 2009 4:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Exactly. Franklin's and Jefferson's construct did not come as a result of their time down at Big Buddah's Opium Den. Not only was it the language, but if you can't see a clear delineation between "No Murder" and "Thou Shall Not Kill," I suggest new glasses and an older history book. They had no other predominate ethos to begin from.

As such, they also only had one ethos to avoid as well - and that was political domination coming from the power of the church. They had to embrace the ethos and at the same time, neuter the political influence of the church. The freedoms they offered up were brilliant, offering every rube in a robe his own religion if he wanted and and fundamentally agreeing to stay out of the churches business. That saw to it that no one religion could ever gain so much power as to threaten the political establishment.

As for moral relativism, every generation sees the world existing in their own time. That is, until you find yourself speaking in your fathers voice and embracing the dogma that he and his father both embraced. Unfortunately, dear dog, you are correct, El Camino only means "the way" it does not provide a map. The erosion of once clear language and law over 200 years make it appear like we've not only lost the map, but the way itself.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 9:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

" Exactly. Franklin's and Jefferson's construct did not come as a result of their time down at Big Buddah's Opium Den."

No, Franklin's came from boning some old French chick and others that were not his wife that he left in America. Guess there were only 8 or 9 commandments then.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 17, 2009 10:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Franklin was boning Skies??????? holy shit!!! things are starting to make sense now

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Sep 17, 2009 10:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

lmao! That's good!

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 9:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Never met any franklin,anywhere , direwolf !

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: deadpolitics Date: Sep 17, 2009 5:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Agreed, dire...

No matter how "far out" one wants to go from the norm, the new and open-minded perception is still rooted in past knowledge and experience... for the founding fathers this was, as you said, a judeo-christian background that they could not escape while inking that parchment.

Mandojammer is calling for a take-back of the Republic... seems like what it will take is another Civil War. Except this one would have to disintegrate the big federal bureaucracy instead of being the first step for its creation.

The US is so diverse... its mighty difficult for a centralized government to address the diversity of issues all over the country. The locals know the issues of their own land better than some high-brow political type far away in D.C...

Here's a vote for local government, local energy, and local food!

This post was modified by deadpolitics on 2009-09-18 00:15:58

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: skies Date: Sep 18, 2009 9:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Diversity in america ,deadpolitics ? I noticed ,from est to west coasts the same curtains , same Mcdonalds ,same lawnmowers in same suburbias !

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: deadpolitics Date: Sep 18, 2009 7:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Yes, skies, beyond the veil of material goods, people are quite different all over the US. I am not well traveled and old enough to tell you stories, but I am quite aware that an American from Georgia is going to be noticeably different than an American from Massachusetts.

That makes me think, though, that people who live in the big cities all over the country are more similar to each other than to their own statesmen, who are living in the countryside.

In France, do people have different lawnmowers in the South as compared to the North?

I bet there are chain stores that are found all over your country which all sell the same products at the same low prices and people buy them because it is what they can afford. Is it not so?

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: skies Date: Sep 19, 2009 8:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

True , Deadpolitics :you are right , I agree , na !

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Edsel Date: Sep 19, 2009 8:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

So, in France, a persons curtains define their philosophy ?
How sad.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: skies Date: Sep 19, 2009 9:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Happy Constitution Day (Very non-Dead)

Edsel : my summer curtains are tuquoise blue with sunny yellow ,and my winter wcurtains are silky purple . Lots of french curtains ae white lace . I did notice americans have sort of heavy curtains ,and carpettings . Here ,we see more wooden floors . It's more a cultural than philosophical habit . As for uniformed sam suburbians houses ,we see them all over now in France too ,and its a bit soulless looking to me . Concret and asphalt are cheeper materials than stone and wood , and it's getting culturally accepted nowadays .As for "modern architecture" ,it's too beurk to even talk about it .Same with so called modern arts . Hippies are the last moderns with good taste ,and I still always appreciate psychadelics arts .